"Atma And Super-atma"

February 21, 1975

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His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada<br>Founder-Acharya of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness
 


Hrdayananda: ...Universal Brotherhood, which is a yoga group around Latin America and they say they are trying to re-educate people and help bring understanding between different cultures. He's originally Mexican.

Prabhupada: What is the name?

Hrdayananda: (Spanish)

Guest: (Spanish)

Hrdayananda: Jose Marciel.

Prabhupada: No, what is the name of the group?

Hrdayananda: The Great Yoga Fraternity, or The Great Universal Brotherhood.

Prabhupada: So what is the purpose of this yoga?

(Hrdayananda translates for the guests)

Hrdayananda: They want to make a synthesis of all the best practices of different cultures to present it to the people so they can have understanding without prejudice.

Prabhupada: No, prejudice is different thing, but what is the science?

Guest (Hrdayananda): He said the basis of the movement is to get knowledge through the use of their faculties in order to raise the consciousness.

Prabhupada: To which platform the consciousness?

Guest (Hrdayananda): He said that they do not feel that they can go very high. They feel that they are in the hands of the great spiritual masters such as yourself and others also.

Prabhupada: So do they aim to go to the highest point?

Guest (Hrdayananda): They feel the highest point is to understand themselves and...

Prabhupada: So has he understood himself?

Guest (Hrdayananda): He said that to a certain extent he feels he has achieved this, but that the reality is unlimited, it cannot be described and that it's more a certain consciousness or appreciation of life that is beyond words.

Prabhupada: Not clear understanding.

Guest (Hrdayananda): He said that they try to have a clear understanding, but he must confess that he is limited.

Prabhupada: He is limited. Then what is unlimited?

Guest (Hrdayananda): He says that the unlimited is that which always was, is and always will be, and the limited is that which is in this material phenomenal world.

Prabhupada: That means that limited is material, he says? And unlimited is spiritual?

Guest: i, pero... (Spanish)

Prabhupada: So what is the conception of the spiritual?

Guest (Hrdayananda): That which is, has been and will be and which is not limited to form.

Prabhupada: Yes. Limited to form. Then how he is unlimited?

Guest: (Spanish)

Hrdayananda: There are some other guests here, so I'm going to have to arrange things at this moment to bring the other guests in. Some of the devotees have to go in the other big room. There's room.

Srutakirti: OK, well, there's ten guests.

Prabhupada: You can move that. So only three of them can remain. You three or four can remain. Others...

Srutakirti: There's ten people from the Metaphysical Society that have come to see you.

Hrdayananda: So Jagajivana, Viraha, Mahavir, Mahavisnu, Pramana...

Prabhupada: Or if that hall is...? [break]

Hrdayananda: (Spanish)

Prabhupada: Now let us distinguish what is limited or what is unlimited. I am asking these gentlemen.

Guest: (Spanish)

Prabhupada: (aside:) Keep Bhagavad-gita in hand, yes. That's it.

Guest (Hrdayananda): So he is saying that this material world is a combination of so many different elements, intelligence, so on and so forth. And in the center of all of this, the essence is that which is eternal. And this eternal thing cannot have any name because then it would be limited, and that would be a contradiction. And also it has no form.

Prabhupada: No, that eternity, that is nice, that the material world is temporary, and the eternity is spiritual. That is clear understanding. Material elements, just like earth, water, fire, air, sky, mind, ego, intelligence, and the spiritual element is which is utilizing these material elements. Do you admit this?

Guest: Si.

Prabhupada: The others? That is the distinction between matter and spirit. Just like this microphone, it is combination of earth, water, air, fire, like that. But the living being, he has utilized, he has combined this matter into this microphone. Is that admitted? Now, exactly like the microphone, the combination of matter and done by some living entity, similarly, the whole cosmic manifestation is combination of matter, and there is one living being or the Supreme Being who has combined them, and it is working. Is that admitted? So that is the difference between limited and unlimited, that I, you are living being... We can also create something like this microphone or this big aeroplane. We have created. That is limited. But there is another one who has created innumerable planets and that is floating in the air. Is it not? We are taking credit of becoming big scientist by creating one airship, 747, five hundred passengers carrying. How many we have created? Maybe hundred, two hundred. But there are millions and trillions of planets floating in the same way in the air, and those planets containing so many big, big mountains, ocean, and they are floating in the air. We can create limited things, but He can create unlimited things. Therefore we have got our limited brain, and He has got unlimited brain. Is that correct?

Guest (Hrdayananda): That suggests that He has a brain.

Prabhupada: Yes. Thank you very much. So as soon as He has got a brain, He is a person. Therefore God is person ultimately. Just like the government. Government is imperson, but the president is person. Similarly, the cosmic manifestation, the energy working, they are all imperson, but the brain behind this is person. That is the distinction between person and imperson.

Guest (Hrdayananda): You said that it is person ultimately. What does that mean ultimately?

Prabhupada: Ultimately, just like the government is imperson, but ultimately the president is person. The government is going on under the order of the president. Therefore impersonal government is not so important as the personal president is important. Another example: just like the sun, and the sunshine, and the sun-god, three things. The sunshine is impersonal, and the sun globe is localized, and within the sun globe there is sun-god. So in one sense they are all one, means heat and light, but the sunshine is different from the sun globe. When... Just like here is sunshine in this room, but that is not sun globe. Therefore, simultaneously, they are one and different. Is it clear? Any question about this?

Guest (Hrdayananda): He says that if God is a person, how can we understand, as there's a common saying that God is and also is not?

Prabhupada: God is person. That I have already explained, that the government is impersonal, the president is person, but the president is more important than the whole government. Just like a man in the court of the government is condemned to die. So there is no law in the government which can save him. But if the president shows him mercy, he can save him. Therefore, the president is more powerful than all the laws in the government. Therefore he is important. What does he say?

Guest (Hrdayananda): He said there are many examples where the laws of the government are superior to the president. For example, in America where Nixon was pulled down by the laws.

Prabhupada: But one law... When he was president, he was powerful than the government. When he resigned from the presidency, then he became less important. This is a crude example. The another example is that the sunshine is universally spread, and the sun globe is situated in one place. So which is important, the sun globe or the sunshine? And just like this light is situated in one place and the illumination is spread. So what is important, the illumination or the lamp? The fire is one place, and the fire light and heat is expanded, so the fire is localized, and the light and heat is expanded many miles. So which is important, the fire or the heat and light? Therefore, God is person, but He is not a person like you and me. But His personality is expanded just like the heat and light of the fire is expanded. Similarly, whatever we see, that is the expansion of God's energy. Just like there are many big businessman. The man is person, but he is conducting hundreds of factories, big, big area. The factories are important or the man is important? If an ordinary person in this material world becomes so important and personal, you can just imagine how the person of God is important in spite of unlimited expansion of this material world. So what is his idea? The person is ultimately important. The impersonal feature is there, just like the impersonal feature, sunshine, but the sun globe, and within the sun globe there is sun-god. The sunshine is the expansion of the energy of the sun globe and within the sun globe there is sun-god. So which is important, the sun globe, the sun-god or the sunshine? Which is important? The sunshine is important?

Guest: All of them.

Prabhupada: All of them. That's all right, but comparatively, the sun-god is the source of everything. Therefore he is important. Therefore God is expanded by His energy. And God is the energetic. But comparatively, although there is no difference between the energy and the energetic, the energetic is more important than the energy. When there is sunshine, it is to be understood that sun globe is there and the sun-god is there. But in this sense the sun-god, the sun globe and the sunshine, they are not different, one, because every one of them has the same quality, heat and light. But still, here is the sunshine. It does not mean the sun-god or the sun globe is here. The sun globe is 93,000,000 miles away from us. So therefore, it is to be understood, they are simultaneously one and different. This is the philosophy.

Guest (Hrdayananda): He said that you have said that God expands, but this implies that God modifies Himself or changes.

Prabhupada: No. That is God. He can expand unlimitedly; still, He remains as He is. That is, means, unlimited. Just like if you have got hundred dollars in your pocket, then if it is spent, one dollar, one dollar, one dollar, then ultimately you become zero. But about God it is said, purnasya purnam adaya purnam eva avasisyate [Iso Invocation]. That means you take hundred dollars. Still, the hundred dollar is there. Similarly, God as He is, He can expand Himself in millions and millions separately; still, He is the same million. That is called God. If we take God in our conception, that "I have got hundred dollars. I spend hundred dollars. It is zero," but God is not like that. God can expand Himself as God unlimitedly; still, He remains the same. There is another nice example. Just like you take one candle and you lit up another candle, you lit up another candle, another candle and millions of candle, but this candle remains the same powerful, and all the candles lit up, they are also same power. But for our understanding, we take the original candle as first candle, the next as second candle, the third, fourth, fifth, millions. But each candle is equally powerful, and the original candle is still there. So by this expansion, God does not diminishes. That is the meaning of God, and that is the meaning of unlimited.

Guest (Hrdayananda): How can we understand the difference between personality and individuality? And if God expands Himself in everything, then He must be inside all of His creation.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is the difference, that God is situated in everywhere, but you are not situated everywhere. You are situated within your body. I am situated within my body. The pains and pleasure of my body, you cannot feel; neither I can feel the pains and pleasure... But God is everywhere. Therefore He can understand what is your pains and pleasure, what is my pains and pleasure, his pains and pleasure. That is unlimited. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita, Find out, what is that verse? Ksetra-jnam capi mam viddhi sarva-ksetresu bharata. Ksetra-jnam capi mam viddhi.

Hrdayananda:

ksetra-jnam capi mam viddhi
sarva-ksetresu bharata
ksetra-ksetrajnayor jnanam
yat taj jnanam matam mama

(reads translation in Spanish)

Prabhupada: Read the purport. [break] Alma and Superalma. (laughter) God is Superalma. (laughter)

Guest (Hrdayananda): You have mentioned pain within the body. What is the origin of pain and the origin of imperfection?

Prabhupada: Origin of pain means as soon as you come to the material world, is the origin of pain. Just like the... It can be appreciated very nicely. Just like water. Water is sometimes painful, and sometimes pleasing. Is it not? Do you agree or not? No, I just try to... Water is the same thing, but sometimes it is painful and sometimes it is pleasing, is it not? So how the same thing becomes pleasing and painful? This is circumstantial. The same thing is pleasing and the same thing is painful under different circumstances. Similarly, fire. Fire is sometimes pleasing and sometimes painful. The fire is the same, but circumstantially, it becomes painful and pleasing. Just like in winter season the fire is pleasing. And in summer season the same fire is painful. Now, these feelings of pains and pleasure is due to this material body. Therefore the material body is the cause of pains and pleasure. So if you do not get this material body -- you remain in your spiritual body -- then there is no more pains and pleasure. So that means the origin of pains and pleasure is to our attachment to this material body. If we can somehow or other get out of this material body, then there is no more pains and pleasure or it is simply pleasure. Therefore in the Vedanta-sutra it is said, anandamayah abhyasat. "By nature the spirit soul is joyful." In the Bhagavad-gita it is also said, brahma-bhutah prasannatma na socati na kanksati: [Bg. 18.54] "As soon as you become spiritually self-realized, then there is no more pains and pleasure." So pleasure means absence of pain. So in your spiritual identity there is no pain, therefore it is simply pleasure. Therefore our endeavor should be how to get our again original spiritual body. Spiritual body is there already. It is covered by the material body, but some way or other, if we stop the covering of the material body, then we are simply in pleasure. Therefore our only attempt in this human body should be how to revive our spiritual body. And that process is Krsna consciousness. That... Open that verse, janma karma me divyam yo janati tattvatah, tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti kaunteya [Bg. 4.9].

Hrdayananda:

janma karma ca me divyam
evam yo vetti tattvatah
tyaktva deham punar janma
naiti mam eti so 'rjuna
 [Bg. 4.9]

(reads translation in Spanish)

Prabhupada: So if you simply understand Krsna, then you revive your spiritual body.

Guest (Hrdayananda): How or why did this spiritual body become covered by the material body?

Prabhupada: How your body is covered in a different dress when you go to the prison house? When one goes to the prison, he has to keep his dress separately and take the prison dress. So anyone who comes into this material world, he has to take a material body. This is the law. Unless you have got this material body, how you can feel pleasure in material sense enjoyment? Just like on a stage, if you are going to play, you have to take dress according to the play. Therefore this material body is compared with the dress. That is stated. Find out, vasamsi jirnani yatha vihaya.

Hrdayananda:

vasamsi jirnani yatha vihaya
navani grhnati naro' parani
tatha sarirani vihaya jirnany
anyani samyati navani dehi
 [Bg. 2.22]

(reads translation in Spanish)

Prabhupada: Just like we are sitting, ladies and gentlemen here. So every one of us, we have got different dress. The dress is superficial, but as ladies and gentlemen, human being, we are one. Similarly, each one of us can have a different dress. So these living entities, they are in different dresses only, and the dresses are calculated-8,400,000 different forms. In the water there are 900,000 different dresses. Similarly, the trees and plants, the two million different types of vegetables. Jalaja-nava-laksani sthavara-laksa-vimsati. There are insects. There are 1,100,000 species. Similarly birds, there are one million. And Paksinam dasalaksanam. Dasa-laksa means one million, one million types of bird. And three million types of beasts. And 400,000 forms of human being. In this way the living entity is passing through different dresses. And the best dress is this human form because in this dress you can understand what is God, what you are, what is your relation with God, and then you can act and go back to home, back to Godhead. Therefore if this dress, in this dress... I am living being; you are living being. So we are in this human form of dress. We have got developed consciousness. If we miss the opportunity to understand God, then again we are put into the cycle of this evolutionary process. We should not therefore misuse this form like other forms. We should utilize it properly to understand the unlimited God and our relationship with God and act accordingly. That is perfection of life.

Guest (Lady) (Hrdayananda): How can we relieve ourselves of material pain and live in spiritual pleasure?

Prabhupada: Yes, as soon as you do not accept this material body, you have no connection with material pains and pleasure. (aside:) Get this light down.

Guest (Hrdayananda): He has understood from Bhagavad-gita that Krsna says that "As you approach Me, I present Myself." So in that sense can this movement be compared to also the consciousness of Christ, Christ consciousness.

Prabhupada: Yes, there is no difference between consciousness of Christ or Krsna provided we follows them. Christ is speaking as son of Godhead, and Krsna is speaking as God, so there is no difference. The truth -- the father speaks or the son speaks -- the truth is the same.

Guest (Hrdayananda): He understands that this Krsna consciousness is the highest state of the mind. Now he requests that you explain to the people how one can achieve Krsna consciousness living in one's own home with one's... In other words for those who are outside the temple, they have their jobs and they live in their houses, how can they achieve Krsna consciousness?

Prabhupada: It is very easy. You chant Hare Krsna. (laughter)

Lady (Hrdayananda): How do we chant Hare Krsna?

Prabhupada: That you are seeing. I am chanting Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare, Hare Rama... They all are chanting.

Lady (Hrdayananda): What is the meaning of this mantra, Hare Krsna?

Prabhupada: Hare means, "O the energy of God," and Krsna, "O God, kindly accept me again. I am fallen in this material world." That's all.

Lady (Hrdayananda): She says that she sees it as a mantra, and from her point of view it seems like we're repeating this mantra over and over again, and it's something like hypnotism. For example, in some tribes there are different rituals. They are chanting different things, and she would like...

Prabhupada: That is her opinion. She is not authority.

Lady (Hrdayananda): She would like an explanation.

Prabhupada: This is the statement in the Bhagavad-gita. Satatam kirtayanto mam [Bg. 9.14]. Find it out.

Hrdayananda:

satatam kirtayanto mam
yatantas ca drdha-vratah
namasyantas ca mam bhaktya
nitya-yukta upasate
 [Bg. 9.14]

(reads translation in Spanish)

Lady (Hrdayananda): She wants to know if it's the same thing to chant om or to chant "I am, I am."

Prabhupada: "I am"? Where is that stated, "I am"? Where is the authority of "I am"?

Lady: (Spanish) Ke es, "Yo soy. Yo soy. Yo soy Dios." (Spanish)

Prabhupada: He says directly, He says directly, satatam kirtayanto mam [Bg. 9.14]. Krsna says, "You always chant My name." So why should we go to other things? God says that "You chant My name," so why should we go to other thing?

Lady (Hrdayananda): He says in this western hemisphere the supreme authority is the Saint Germaine, and he says that we should chant "I am." That's a quote from the Bible meaning... Apparently when they asked God, "Who are You?" and God said, "I am that I am."

Prabhupada: What you are?

Guest: (Spanish) "I am" es el nombre de Dios...

Prabhupada: But what you are? "I am," you are thinking, but what you are? Do you know what you are?

Guest (Hrdayananda): I think they mean that it's a quotation from God.

Prabhupada: No, no. There must be your sense also. You are saying, "I am," but if I ask you, "What you are...?"

Guest (Hrdayananda): I am that I am.

Prabhupada: But you do not know what you are. Then you are a nonsense. You say, "I am," but if I ask, "What you are?" you cannot reply. Then you are a nonsense. You must explain what you are. Then "I am."

Lady: Every time that we say, "I am..."

Prabhupada: But you must explain what you are.

Lady: Yes, sir.

Prabhupada: What is that?

Lady: Every time that we say, "I am," we must be conscious of what we are saying that we are, and it must...

Prabhupada: That I am asking you, that what you are?

Guest: Why don't we look at it this other way? You say the name of God is Krsna.

Prabhupada: No, that is already separate, now another question. She says, "I am." But I am asking -- I am also "I am," -- I am asking you, "What you are?"

Guest: May I explain? She says that God says that His name is I am, as a name.

Prabhupada: What is that?

Hrdayananda: He said that "I am" is a name of God.

Prabhupada: God never says like that. Where it is? They must quote some authority. Where it is?

Lady (Hrdayananda): She said in the Bible, when some people were leaving and they said, "Who is sending them?" God said, "Tell them that it is the God of your fathers and that I am."

Prabhupada: In the Bible it is said? Where it is?

Guest: Exodus, Moses, in Mount Sinai?

Prabhupada: Anyone knows Bible it is said?

Srutakirti: It's in there, yes.

Prabhupada: What is that?

Srutakirti: God says, "I am who am."

Prabhupada: No, God said, "I am," you say, "I am" -- that is all right. But God says "I am," -- we can understand God. "I am" means God. But what you are?

Guest: Well, He said, "This is My name, and this is My name forever."

Prabhupada: He says like that?

Srutakirti: That's the way it's translated, "I am who am."

Prabhupada: So nobody knows Bible here? I am not very much conversant with Bible. But so far I know that Christ says that "I am the son of God." We can understand. So is there any difference? God says or Christ says that "I am the son of God." So the father is different. The father can say "I am," and the son also can say, "I am," but everyone is "I." But what is the relation between this "I" and that "I." That is wanted to know.

Guest (Hrdayananda): I am a particle of God.

Prabhupada: That is this. Therefore I am particle; He is whole. Therefore difference. When God says, "I am," and I say, "I am," there is difference. I am particle "I am," and He is whole "I am." (laughter) Another, a millionaire says, "I am," and his servant says, "I am," but both the "I's" are same? So God is great. He says, "I am." He is great "I am." And I say, "I am." I am small "I am." Therefore this "I am" and that "I am" is different. This "I am," when I say, "I am," and God says, "I am," this "I am" and this "I am" is different. So not always I am the same. So far I am concerned, my identity, your identity is concerned, that is all right, one. But you "I am" and I "I am" not, different. The soul as soul, it is all right. But as particle, as whole, they are different. Yes, that is to be understood. God says, "I am," means "I am the whole." And I say, "I am" -- "I am the particle." So therefore we should understand that when I say, "I am," and God says, "I am," they are different. [break] Your consciousness, your identification, my identification, my consciousness is different. And because we are different, therefore we are considering what is the ultimate goal. So in spite of difference, you can say "I am," I can say, "I am," He can say, "I am," but that does not mean there is no difference. My "I am," I am different from you, "I am." This is to be understood. I can say, "I am," you can say, "I am," but this "I am" and that "I am" is different.

Guest: May I ask a question, please? Master, perhaps... It seems to me we have sort of misunderstood. These people is trying to inquire whether or not a sort of a mantram I would say invented here in the western hemisphere or a so-called master is or is not good for realization of the self. But I am thinking more in terms of the question, it is perhaps more suitable to make the question a question, not affirmation. "Who am I?" perhaps, is the best of the mantrams instead of affirming, "I am," because we cannot realize who I am.

Prabhupada: That's all right. But you are basing your knowledge, "Perhaps." Therefore you are imperfect. "Perhaps." That means you are imperfect. Your statement will not be accepted. Because you are imperfect, you say, "Perhaps, maybe." So this is not knowledge. This is not knowledge. This is ignorance. As soon as you say, "Perhaps, maybe," that means you do not know what is, the actual thing is. Knowledge must be perfect. There is no question of "Perhaps, it may be." No, that is not knowledge. That is speculation. That is speculation. That is not knowledge. Because you are sitting, "Perhaps," therefore your knowledge cannot be accepted.

Guest: No, no, I'm just asking the question whether or not the right question could be: "Who am I?"

Prabhupada: Yes, that's nice. That's nice. Therefore I say when you say, "I am," and when I say, "I am," I must understand who I am, you must understand who you are. That I am saying, that simply saying "I am," is not the final. Is not the final. Everyone is "I am," but he must know what I am, what that "I am." That is knowledge. If you blindly say, "I am," and you do not know what you are, then what is the use of using "I am"? Therefore I ask, "What you are?"

Lady (Hrdayananda): She says that everyone has to decide.

Prabhupada: Yes. That decision is required, that is knowledge. Simply saying, "I am," everyone can say, "I am." What is that? You must know what you are. That is required. Therefore I am asking, "What you are?"

Lady: I agree. I am just mentioning that "I am" is the name of God, and then you add the adjective, and He will be established unto you.

Prabhupada: No, no, no, no. "I am" is not the name of God. That is identification. That is the identification. God can say, "I am," you can say, "I am," but that does not mean you are God.

Lady: Jesus Christ said that if you establish what you are after you say "I am"...

Prabhupada: That's all right, everyone is saying, "I am." Everyone is saying in ordinary dealing, "I am." That is there. But that does (not) mean different "I am" is the same.

Lady: You decree it. You decree what you are. You decree. With "I am," you decree. You make a decree.

Prabhupada: No, no, that decree is already there. Just like in the Bible, "God is great." You are not great. Therefore you "I am" and God "I am" different.

Girl: Is it possible to sing the maha-mantra for someone else who has died, and will it have the same effect?

Prabhupada: If you say, "I am servant," and God says, "I am master," then it is perfect.

Lady (Hrdayananda): You said that when I say, "I am," and when you say, "I am," they are different. But she understands that the essence of everyone is the same.

Prabhupada: That's all right. But still, in the essence, in the essence means the spirit; that God is the supreme spirit, I am the particle spirit. So far spiritual constitution is concerned, God and the living entity, one. Both of them are spiritual. But the power, God's power and your power, is not the same. It is said in the Bible, so far I remember, "God said, 'Let there be creation.' There was creation." Can you do that, "Let there be creation" and create something? Therefore when God says, "I am" and you say "I am," that is different. So "I" means person. As person, He is also person. And "I" means persons. You are also person. But that person and you person is different. He is almighty, all-powerful. You have no... You have limited power.

Lady (Hrdayananda): This is Mayavadi philosophy. She's saying that when she says, "I am," she doesn't mean "I" in the sense of the lower self but in the higher self.

Prabhupada: That we have admitted. God is spirit; I am spirit. So both of them "I." But God's power and your power is not equal. God said, "Let there be creation." There was creation. But you say, "Let there be capati," there will be no capati unless you work. (laughter) You have to work for it.

Lady (Hrdayananda): God is the whole, and we are parts, and we are evolving to integrate ourselves with that whole.

Prabhupada: That is all right. But as part... Just like the finger. You can say, "part of the body," but it is not the whole body. So finger is working. Just like I am rubbing the head. The finger is... But the head is different, the finger is different, but if you take the whole thing, it is body.

Lady (Hrdayananda): She said without all the parts, it would not be the body so we are all parts of the whole.

Prabhupada: That's all right. Still, this is axiomatic truth. Part is not equal to the whole.

Lady (Hrdayananda): But we are in evolution.

Prabhupada: Evolution? No, there is no evolution. The part is part eternally, and the whole is whole eternally.

Lady (Hrdayananda): So she's asking does that mean that one does not integrate himself with the whole when he becomes evolved?

Prabhupada: No, you are already in the whole. What is that?

Lady (Hrdayananda): She says, "Therefore we're all one."

Prabhupada: One and different, that is our philosophy. Just like the one small screw is in the machine. So the whole is one, but the small screw is not equal to the whole machine. But the screw cannot be called the whole machine.

Lady (Hrdayananda): She said, "We are part of this whole."

Prabhupada: Yes, that is, that is. We also. Mamaivamso jivabhutah jiva-loka sanatanah. Find out.

Hrdayananda:

mamaivamso jiva-loke
jiva-bhutah sanatanah
manah sasthanindriyani
prakrti-sthani karsati
 [Bg. 15.7]

(reads translation in Spanish)

Lady (Hrdayananda): She said they admit the same thing. They want to know if...

Prabhupada: Same thing, but why he is manah sasthanindriyani prakrti-sthani, Why he is struggling here? God doesn't struggle.

Guest (Hrdayananda): He said because there was a misunderstanding.

Prabhupada: Who misunderstanding?

Guest (Hrdayananda): So he has said that we have given the name Krsna to God, but actually there are so many names of God, that it doesn't matter what the name of God is. It can be "I am" or it can be whatever it may be. Just like in India, he's understood that in India there are so many different names of God.

Prabhupada: So do you think that "I am" is the name? (Guest speaks in Spanish-gives different names of God) That's all right. Allah is name, Krsna is name, Jehovah is name. But "I am" is not name.

Guest: Si, es un nombre. Yaveh, Yaveh.

Prabhupada: If I ask you, "What is your name?" you say, "I am." Is it very clear? (Prabhupada speaks to those near him as Hrdayananda discusses with man in Spanish:) Simply... "What is your name?" "I am." How foolishly they are.

Hrdayananda: They thought we meant why are we struggling here? But I explained no...

Prabhupada: No, no, I mean to say, they said that "I am" is the name of God. So is it practical that if I ask your name, "What is your name?" "I am."

Guest (Hrdayananda): He said that say, for example, suppose that his parents were crazy and gave him the name "I am"...

Prabhupada: But there is no business in crazy. We have no business with crazy. (some people are laughing and some are talking) All right, what is the time now? We have no business with crazy. This is practical. This is practical. If in the court the judge inquires, "What is your name," and if you say, "I am," he will immediately say, "He is a crazy man. Get him out." (several people start talking at once) This kind of knowledge has got no value. No, no. If he does not like to accept Krsna as the name of God, he has got his name, say, Jehovah or Allah. That is all right.

Lady (Hrdayananda): They're saying it's not that they don't like Krsna. They like Krsna very much, but they are saying that everything is...

Prabhupada: No, no, they must have some name of God. "I am" is not the name. That is false conception.

Guests (Hrdayananda): They say it's something very personal.

Prabhupada: No. When you ask name, that is personal.

Lady: God?

Prabhupada: God means controller. God is not name. Just like the president, Mr. Ford. That is name, and president is the controller. So every controller has got name. So why the supreme controller will not have any name? That is ignorance.

Lady (Hrdayananda): She's saying that Christ said that "I am the way."

Prabhupada: Well, every guru is the way to approach God. That's a fact. But he has got his name, Christ. So why do you deny this name? "Christ says," -- that means either you take him anything, but he has a name, Christ.

Lady: No.

Prabhupada: No? What is this? (laughter) That is your conception. It is not Bible's conception. Bible says the son of God is Christ. You can create by mental concoction anything, but if you refer to the Bible, the name is Christ. Everyone says, all Christians says, all Christians says, "the Jesus Christ." Why do you deny it?

Lady (Hrdayananda): Mayavada. She says that everyone has the Christ within him.

Prabhupada: No, we don't agree with all these things.

Lady (Hrdayananda): If we agree with Buddhist consciousness?

Prabhupada: No, no, whatever consciousness may be, I say that in the Bible it is said that son of God is Christ. His name is Christ. How you can deny the name? No, no, that is their interpretation, "Christ means 'I am.' " They want to interpret in their own way. There is name. How can you deny it?

Guest (Hrdayananda): He is saying that you have said that we have a material body and also a spiritual body. So he wants to know if the spirit and matter are born simultaneously or if the matter is born, the material body is born, and later the spirit comes.

Prabhupada: No, from spirit the matter has come out. Just like God said, "Let there be creation." So God was there and creation later on. So God is spirit and creation is matter.

Guest (Hrdayananda): He has understood from what he thinks is Indian philosophy that you cannot give God a name because that would be limiting God.

Prabhupada: No, you don't give God name. But God is named by His action. Just like Krsna. Krsna means all-attractive. Krsna means all-attractive. That is the quality of God, that He is all-attractive. Similarly, Allah. Allah means "the great." So God is great; therefore He is called Allah. So actually God has no name, but according to His action, He has name. That's all right. You can...

Guest (Hrdayananda): He thanks you very much, and he considers it a great privilege to have been here today.

Prabhupada: Thank you for your coming here. (end)
 
>>> Ref. VedaBase => Room Conversation with Metaphysics Society -- February 21, 1975, Caracas

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